Exploring Ethical Non-Monogamy with Victoria and Ryan from Birds of a Feather Match Making

In this episode, I sit down with Victoria and Ryan, two military veterans turned entrepreneurs, to dive into their journeys—from serving in the armed forces to launching Birds of a Feather Matchmaking, the first boutique matchmaking firm specializing in ethical non-monogamous (E.N.M.) relationships.

What do you think about ethical non-monogamy? Drop your thoughts in the comments below!

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Transcript

1:12

alright well thank you so much Victoria and Ryan for being here uh if you want like you just kick off by introducing yourselves I'm pretty sure we know who's Victoria and who's Ryan but if you guys want to introduce yourself tell me a little bit about you your upbringing what LED you to join the military kind of start from there yeah sure so I am originally from Arizona currently living near Chicago and I joined the military right after high school and pretty much my journey started being motivated through my mom because my grandpa was in the military he was a Navy chemist at the time and my grandpa always told my mom to like join military or else you'll regret it and my mom's like no I'm not gonna do that well later on in life she did regret it and she always like kind of instilled that in me growing up that like you should join the military and initially she wanted me to go in as an officer or join the reserves but then I changed my mind I was like no I want my education paid for and full so I'm gonna switch and become active duty so kind of like one of the main reasons I joined the military was cause I wanted to get my education paid for with the G I Bill benefits that they had um and that's what really really was my motivating factor for the military um and so I joined um and I joined as an a B F and um that was in October 2014 and lived in San Diego lived in Japan and then lived back in San Diego and that's when I became a civilian and and that's when we start our business which we'll get into later but that's kind of a little bit about the backstory of my military career she worked in yeah yes say that again I am yes so I was in the Marine Corps for 10 years um I didn't join until I was 21 I went to college for probably for probably for three years and I I switched majors pretty much every year I didn't really know what I wanted to do um and at a certain point I was like you know what I need I need to do something different so I decided to join the military um I joined as a communication communication specialist I did radio stuff and then I um changed jobs from lat moved or what is is what it's called into um being a linguist and then I got put on a B billet which is like a job that they give you in in the military you don't really choose it but you have to do it um and I was a part of a Fast Company which is essentially embassy reinforcement so that was my pretty much my my teller career oh so I will yeah so I joined out of Chicago um and I went to boot camp in San Diego and then I was in Southern California for three years and I moved up to Northern California for about a year training there then to Texas then North Carolina then Virginia and yeah not not including any deployments that's all just bases that was in Japan oh yeah Japan was a deployment for me so she lived in Japan like stationed there and it was a deployment for me yeah but he deployed there for a year so yeah yeah so Spanish Spanish yeah yeah yeah yeah no no I I I chose what what I thought was gonna be the easiest thing to be honest I just I wanted to change my jobs I wanted a good bonus and they had them both so yeah haha being practical when I was deployed in South America we had a linguist and I thought he was Spanish speak Spanish speaking but it was actually Portuguese oh yeah yeah okay yeah yeah that sounds fun we met in Japan yeah we met in Japan we were in the military party yes um I forgot how I got invited to this little house party but I went there with a couple of friends and and then she tried to leaving without talking yeah and I was talking to everyone else there and while I was there his friends invited me to go my recording with them on the streets of Tokyo and I was like uh yes of course and so um you know we chatted for a little bit and then I actually had to leave and as I was leaving that's when I met Ryan and then he's like where are you going and I'm like I'm leaving I don't think I sounded like that but I'm probably more like hey where are you going you know I'm just yeah but then he got yeah yeah very very smooth at least in my head it was really smooth and really great and awesome so and then we um met like a couple days after that and at at the haunch which is like a mile long street of bars right outside the the naval base in Yokoska Japan and we hit it off right away and then after that like I think like the next day is when we went Mario karting and I was Peach and he was Mario even though he had only known each other for like a few days and we just been hanging out ever since yeah she can't get rid of me so hahaha so did Ryan did you leave Japan first yeah so I so you in in fast so I don't know how it looks now but in when I was in fast you got deployed to Japan for about six months and then you would go home essentially I got orders again well I kind of tried to finagle the orders and went back to Japan for another six ish months and then yeah so I was there for just about a year so so did you guys do the long distance thing yeah yeah yeah so for about I'd say six months we were long distance and doing all that yeah and actually our meet anniversary is either today or tomorrow I'm trying to I thought I read it in my calendar but I didn't but yeah so we've met in 2016 in February yeah so yeah it's been a minute yeah that's that's interesting so okay so you guys so did you both get out at the same time no yeah so I got out so I got out in 2017 and then she got out in 2019 was it 2019 yes and how how our where our living situation transitioned was we we're in Japan together at the same time and then we moved to San Diego in August 2017 yeah and then that's when um we live in San Diego yeah San Diego and that's when he got out and then I got out a couple of years later and um yeah I'm sure it was all over the place and we all know how dual military relationships are and I mean I have friends that I you know they're like ones in the army or ones in the Navy yeah yeah yeah it wasn't too bad cause I was I was out at the time so I just gotten out and then she had gotten orders maybe like a month or a couple months beforehand so I just essentially went over there to live with her yeah I was the dependent yep he was yeah I was just I was being dependent going to school doing all those but it really panned out because it did work out well well he was my dependent he uh got he finished his degree in cyber security and went through the Sands instantaneous got certified and pretty much had a very very smooth transition from military to civilian life yeah yeah it was pretty easy so I mean haha I am Sands is awesome um if anybody knows the Sands Institute for cybersecurity the Vet Success program yeah I was thrown into cybersecurity yeah I work in security yeah and you kind of like are forced to have to yeah I appreciate anybody who goes into that world yeah tell me a little bit about your business and how that came about yes so my business is called birds of Feather Matchmaking it's a boutique matchmaking firm specializing in ethically nonmonogamous relationships meaning anyone who is interested in being in an open relationship a poly relationship or a swinger lifestyle relationship and this stemmed mainly from personal experience and passion and wanting to start my own business um the idea of matchmaking came to me um when we are honeymooning yeah this was the emphasis for it it's just she saw a post on Facebook oh yes I saw a post on Facebook about a matchmaker looking for singles for her clients like a screenshot that's going around the girl groups and I thought like well that's that would be amazing bring more love into the world it could be hybrid um so and it was like the way the timing was was like I just finished my MBA I want to start my own business didn't know what I want to do yet and I'm like let me look into this a little bit more because my Ron and I have been nominating for majority of our relationship and there so I want to see if there's other matchmakers doing it cause I figured like I would want to be a part of the niche that I am so people can resonate with me more and I can help that particular uh group of people and um turns out there's no matchmakers doing it so I became the first certified matchmaker specializing in ethically non monogamous relationships E&M for sure so if I say E&M that's what that means um and before I got certified officially I was uh communicating with a handful of other matchmakers and just asking them questions and whenever I told them what like what I was planning on doing they're like we need someone like you there's no one else doing it um and then you know answer any questions that I had so it was it was great and yeah I started that business in February 2023 and now I do matchmaking and together we do date coaching for men and I also host a lot of um social events like speed dating events for those who are non monogamous for individuals or couples and social event so sometimes it might be just like an all girl event like a Galentine's party that I'm throwing soon or just a regular social event like on the rooftop I've hosted like a rooftop brunch so just things to bring the the community together in a fun and low pressure casual environment yeah so tell me how that worked and again being completely new to this concept um so when you guys had first established your non monogamous relationship now I'm totally going off of like movies here but like did you set up like ground rules like were there like like boundaries how does that work and how did you guys make it work prior to the business starting yes so there were there were ground rules which um and you don't have to yeah yeah no no no it's just it's it's you know it's it's kind of funny because in the very beginning when you're when you're first jumping into this you're you're like so nervous and so scared about everything you're like oh my God this is gonna happen and this is like all the stereotypes you're like oh this is gonna ruin this if we do this this is gonna be wrong and I'm intentionally not giving giving examples of like all the things that were going on okay we can give one example of one that we had which was a boundary or a rule or an agreement um which whichever you kind of call it and actually different differentiating between the three is kind of like a skill in itself because they all sound similar but they're all a little bit different but like for example one rule that we had was like no repeats like we only want to hook up with someone like one time it'd be like a one night stand we didn't want to risk like catching feelings and then we realized so quickly like that is just not the case that's definitely not what happens because you want to make friends with these people and then you're you know then that's when you might have repeat experiences with your really good friends and so that particular yeah rule we graduated from that very soon very quickly but we didn't really honestly I don't think we had too many so the way our journey started was I we don't remember the initial conversation but I think it was me who asked him he's like hey have you ever heard of swinging is that something that you might be interested in because I had Learned about swinging from um an early age when I was in high school and I always thought that was like amazing like you're married and you could be you know you have a normal life and then you go and have sex with other people like that sounds great to me so I was had that on the back of my mind and so when I told Ryan about that he immediately was like yeah that sounds like a good idea to me too yeah literally and so we're like okay cool so what we did when we were long distance for six months we wrote erotica's to each other back and forth pretending to be in the situation and we were swinging like one one um one of them was like we were out for a picnic and we saw another couple and we just sparked up conversation like some really cheesy stuff like that but like we're totally into it it was a great way to pass time for me on deployment you know cause we were doing different perspectives like it was like his point of view my point of view and we were like going back and forth um so that's kind of like what inspired us more to like continue our journey and then when we move to San Diego that's where we really launched our lifestyle journey first we went to a poly meet up and then we went to a reptile Shibari meet up through a FET life events and then we met swingers and we're like oh yeah these are our people and then ever since then that's pretty much where we devote a lot of our time and hobby to so if you would call it a hobby but and having been a confidant for a lot of my friends who tell me a lot of like what what their dynamic is with their relationships it seems like that's a pretty normal start yeah I I yeah I would say I'd say so I think the most normal start is when there's a couple and the woman is bicurious yeah and so she is interested in having experiences with other women and they're like okay so how can we have these experiences with other women and so that's why they look for threesomes or they look for what's called a unicorn which is um a bisexual woman who plays with couples and but once they start trying to reach into this community and this lifestyle they realise oh there's a lot of couples who are really cool and then they might dive into becoming a swinging couple rather than just having threesomes with another woman but yeah you're right it is a very I I would say for the most part it's it's gradual I mean there's obviously cases where that's not the case people just go buck wild and you know jump head first but but that yeah right I think having a company like yours yes where it's not damaging right yeah I remember uh Victoria I was telling you I live in a suburb in California with a lot of swingers and I did not know that I had to learn the concept of this like upside down pineapple thing which was this running joke amongst the entire community that I was not aware of and I was in Costco and someone like slapped one of these like haha gotcha oh my God oh no oh no haha yeah that's how I Learned about it and then like shortly after that happened is when I got in touch with you on the veterans page and you explain to me a little bit more about it and I was like oh shit haha oh I like solidified it for you like that oh my gosh it's alive and well haha I mean there's like bars in New York that are exclusively as where I'm from exclusively for Swingers mmh yep yeah because that's just what they prefer mmh mmh so it's interesting so okay so you guys try this first hand you kind of get a hold of some folks on Facebook you understand that other people are looking to do this so how does it work right so if I'm let's say I'm that wife and I'm like you know what I kind of want to try this I see I see your birds of a feather and I'm like let me hit them up and see see how they can help me and my husband how how does that work like I said there's a couple different ways right so the is if this person has done nothing at all like we have a little activity that is called like opening your relationship or are are you a good fit for opening your relationship no it's called yeah opening your relationship yeah so it's a little activity with questions and essentially hey it's a checklist like a think like a bingo card right like and there's different things on each one so there's stuff about open relationship there's stuff about swinging polyamory and things that lean like kinky that you can just do by yourself yeah so yeah it's a cover it's like how to have the conversation and then it's a communication tool and that's kind of what Ryan and I did in the beginning of our relationship we're like okay let's just try to look up what we might be into and then we'll come back together and talk about it and then we'll try to do something about it so how the how the the process goes is you'll each get a sheet of paper right and you'll kind of fill out like oh this sounds interesting to me okay this sounds interesting like just check it out it's called yes no or maybe yeah and then afterwards after you both fill out the the both partners fill out the the sheet come back together and discuss it and say okay hey I like this this and this and you like that this and that yeah exactly you see where there's alignment you see where there's like room for improvement or and then you can see like what might be like a hard no at the time and something that I also tell people is like just be open to change it's like very scary at first you know but you learn so much about yourself when you have a dynamic like this for sure and then you're going to events and you're meeting other people and it just kind of growing from there but that's that's the first step I would say if if they're brand new yeah just have the talk with your partner cause there's no point to to go to a place or pay for something if you like literally haven't had a conversation you literally don't know anything about it at all and you're just like okay let's do this but the first step talk to your partner second step figure out what you like yeah so typically with my business I do have a lot of new people that come out to me and I am I feel very resourceful for new people especially too um but with my business is it's like the the helping other couples isn't particularly like the main part of my business it's mainly those who are single who want to have an open relationship so with the um couples who are interested in in being a part of my database or being like this I will take them as a client as a case by case basis because I don't match for play partners it's more like something that's like long term and um yeah if if they're brand new we just I ask them like what they're curious about and answer any questions that they might have and I just do that like um if yeah she does a few questions she does consultation calls just to see yes I do with every every potential client or anybody that does a consultation call he finds out what they want what you know what what is really important to them and then going from there right yeah so and the best experience is going out and trying it for yourself because a lot of times what happens is that people are like I'm interested in swinging but they actually might be like you know I'm actually more interested in like the BDSM like having a Dom sub relationship or more interested in being polyamorous and having multiple relationships so once you start diving in you just have to have you have to have regular check ins with your partner you have to um not hold anything back because then resentment starts to build and that's when there's like a downfall of a relationship when it could just be a conversation and so first step conversation I guess yeah the long winded answer for that how do you I I have a question about the the single aspect but how do you recommend so let's say I'm a husband and I wanna bring this up to my wife and like but I don't want my wife to think that I'm just trying to like bone other people how do you recommend facilitating that conversation with your spouse if that's the route you're looking to take so there's a bunch of different ways to do this and I it's gonna be case by case depending cause something I recommend for somebody isn't gonna go over well with somebody else um I guess one strategy would be to just kind of um hint at something like this in in the bedroom like say hey wouldn't it be hot if blah like there was another person here with us that might great go over great with some people might you might burn and crash for other people right like I think if you're interested in this relationship dynamic come from it like when everyone's in a good mood everyone's in good spirits so the main thing that I that is crucial is that this relationship dynamic is not good if your relationship is rocky oh yeah this is you like you have to make sure that your relationship is solid the way it is like to begin with it's it's kind of like having a kid it's it's not gonna fix anything it's only gonna make things worse if you have a bad relationship if you have a good relationship kids gonna make your well could make your relationship work but generally it's gonna make your relationship better right like you're love raising this child that you love and everything but if you have a bad relationship or we're fighting constantly that's just are there's no trust you're gonna do nothing but add it's pretty much just gonna expidite what's gonna what needs to happen which sometimes ends up into a breakup and people yeah go from there so I get another example something good would be to use that checklist that we talked about earlier and say hey I will have a fun game I wanna play with us is I we don't have to take it seriously but like what I wanna know more about your your your your fantasies your kinks things of that nature and just go from there talking about resources that you found talking about like hey what do you think about this or what do you think of this video what do you think of this docuseries um there's a couple of good documents or docuseries I recommend to people two of them actually now there's a series on Netflix called explained which has kind of like short summaries about that's very like hyper focused on certain subjects and one of them's called monogamy is it monogamy or not monogamy what it either way it's it's okay it might be monogamy or monogamy but it basically talks about how humans are terrible about being monogamous or being monogamous yeah yeah and then the new one that we found is called you can't ask that which is about marginalized groups in Australia and there's a um episode about swingers and episode about polyamory so and kink yes and um yeah and some P d s m stuff too so um those are all interesting and honestly the the you can't ask that one on on Swingers was was pretty spot on with their answers and like how they were responding to things so that that's a good place to start as well just kind of learn more about it yeah like you just if you don't know something you don't know yeah so yeah so make sure there's lots of love in your relationship make sure that there's already some good communication and um tons of communication hopefully you're with a partner who's non judgmental who's open minded who is experimental like hopefully you picked the right person like if this is something that you're really interested in like the the part that is crucial as well is having support too so a lot of women are like are you sure like you know cause societal norms are like women should be this perfect pure being and they have a certain role and they are not look the same as men when it comes to their sexuality like men can have an abundance and women cannot and so when someone is been traditional and been monogamous um it's difficult to convince them of something else that that exists that would would be feasible it's pretty much a lot of reassurance too that's required in this kind of relationship like are you sure and it's like yeah that'd be really hot and of course you want it like you want to be happy you want to make your partner happy let's try it out I always tell people just give it a try um see how you feel and and take it away from there hopefully that answers your question haha no it does there's a few different ways you can have the conversation yeah yeah it's like you need to have the conversation for sure but also maybe a little self reflection and looking at your relationship from the outside in and understanding mm hmm yeah yeah and that trust no yeah and I would even say like a good way to just even start would be to get like a sex toy together like go start getting into that space like do kinky stuff between the two of you and then you know just keep taking it up a notch so it's like okay we've role played now let's make it real life so I think going and getting the sex toys together is a start as well to launching this about that so I was sending a care package to my friend oh haha because you're gonna get a box full of like yep of course we love it I'm at this like sex shop and I'm like give me the weirdest shit you have oh my gosh I gotta go to the back room for this yeah I was like this is for a guy friend and I even like I had like little like penis confetti yes yes yes oh my God that's amazing oh yeah there's like a little back room right and I was like yes let's go yeah so I go into this like back room so there's like aisles and there's just one little door that leads into this room that has like the real crazy stuff so I'm back there and there's this cutest like the cutest couple that's there like just so like chiseled out of stone picture perfect and the guys like Janet should we what do you think of this and it's just like this giant dildo I'm like yo you guys are awesome I'm talking like khaki khaki shorts like socks socks pulled all the way up haha yeah yeah yeah impressive yeah I mean haha but you're also like they're pretty solid happy couple and they're just doing what makes them happy yeah I I will say that it is more prevalent than you think like being in some sort of non monogamous relationship there's yes it's a subset of the population just like you know 5 10% of it can be servers it can be CEOs it can be surgeons it can be teachers and it can be those in the medical field yep so yeah so yeah but you never know until you know yeah I've always seen it from like a cultural aspect to have a lot of friends who come from like more of a poly like that's their culture um they're from all over the world and that's just like their their thing and I never really thought anything about it again this is I did a lot of research before coming into this episode to kind of see what was out there and I'm like oh yeah yeah a lifestyle if you will haha yeah and I would I would say that non monogamy is even more prevalent you've all everybody knows somebody that's been cheated on either you've cheated on somebody you've been cheated on or you know somebody that's been cheated on so yeah we're just putting the ethical part in there where everything is discussed and consensual and ethical beforehand yes that's I think that's also really important right that eliminates all of the the stereotypical like stuff that's out there about it not being a good thing or it being difficult it's like well cause you weren't honest about it yeah no exactly yep yep yep and and and and I should you know cheating does happen I don't know why and it doesn't make any sense to me but it does happen to very much less frequently I would say but yeah so in the swinger lifestyle is what you're referring to yeah I'm sorry yeah so let's go back to what you said where you primarily work with single individuals who are looking to explore this lifestyle is it men and women that you guys take on as clients okay so how does that process work yes so the process how that pretty much starts out is I have a dating database which is for you to be a part of and I have an application and it's on my website bridesofothermatching com and on that application it's just like a few questions and then I get notified that you join my dating database I look into it and then um what I do next is I get in touch with the person who who has expressed in the application that they're interested in matchmaking services and I set up a zoom call and pretty much on the zoom call is my free consultation call um and that's where I go over the questions that they went over the profile I asked them more I asked them like what kind of dynamic are you interested in do you have any experience and a lot of times when I talk to people um and I say are you interested in open relationship poly relationship or a swing your lifestyle relationship and either like I don't know or all the above or like what's the difference so like a quick way that I like to explain like what each of them are is that open relationship is when you do things separately typically it's when you might have hall passes prioritizing freedom of oh yeah yeah of agency so yes it's with an emphasis on personal freedom it might be separate dates another one is poly which is having multiple loving intimate relationships so that might be having a wife and a girlfriend or a wife having a husband and a boyfriend feelings of intimacy that you wouldn't feelings of love you're you're trying to create multiple loving relationships yes and then the swinging lifestyle is yep oh NAR it's all good which which part did um it ended with after you reach out to the individual who has requested to be a part of your database okay so just okay okay okay oh and and so we need to make sure that you know it's date d a t E a base so you can put the link in there I'm just kidding date a base yeah she she made me change it on the website so it's date a base now so date a base I just want to throw that in there haha um so um I they join my dating database and I have a zoom call with them and that's where I ask them more questions about themselves I ask them about their dating history and then I ask them what kind of relationship dynamic that they're interested in under the ethical nomenclature um term and usually they get confused about the differences between open relationship a poly relationship or a swing your lifestyle relationship so an open relationship has a emphasis on personal freedom so that typically means doing things separately so it could be hall passes it could be separate dates um and and or open to any opportunities that kind of come your way and figuring out like what you want to be communicated like that Poly is multiple loving relationships you're looking for intimacy and feelings all the feelings and emotions are is polyamory so yeah so you might have a um I might have a husband and a boyfriend or vice versa and that's when you have like long term goals all that kind of stuff and then swinger lifestyle or the swinger lifestyle is when you doing this um for sexual experiences and gratification it's pretty much just like having for fun you are mainly for the most part like emotionally monogamous but physically not monogamous so that's why you have a lot of people involved in um and that's not that's not to say you can't have friends and you know things of that nature um as a swinger right like we definitely have a lot of friends we love in the lifestyle but the the main focus is on um sex not emotions yeah I'd say sex and friendships for the swingers yeah emotions for Polly and then just personal freedom for those who open relationship yeah and emotions and and other things can be with Polly and you can also be all the above as well and and we're we're generalizing all of these right like there are so many nuances to each one of these these broad categories right like Polly is you could write a book like this thick and still wouldn't cover the terminology okay right so so I'm on the zoom call with this with this potential client um and then if they're interested in moving forward um I offer different packages like a paper match or a 6 month membership and that's pretty much where I I get their photos ready I get their profile ready and then essentially I'm executive recruiting for their love life so I'm networking I'm going to events I'm talking to people online in person cause I'm I really well I guess I'm getting all ahead of myself because before I start looking I meet them in person I talk to them again for like an hour or two really get to know them who I think would be really good match with them what do they wanna do with this partner what are the long term goals that kind of stuff and then I find the person and then um if there's mutual agreement uh based on profiles that I share then we plan a date and I don't exchange contacts unless they both mutually agree that they'd like to move forward so they don't meet they don't talk until they're meeting in person on that date and then um you know they take it away from there so is this the service that you provide is it anywhere in the United States or is it specific to Chicago it can be anywhere in the United States but it's mostly metro areas in the United States yeah major metropolitan areas yeah but mainly Chicago but yes yeah Chicago is a lot easier as we can go meet people in person right and do a lot of things I mean we do take trips out to we travel a lot yeah quite often and California like Southern California quite often so and Arizona yeah Arizona as well yeah so it just depends on the area if there is a community there that I can tap into then I'm able to work with clients that way where would you say you have the highest concentration of clients and folks that are in your database your database so Chicago New York City uh Phoenix Arizona and then um a lot in Texas actually and um Miami Florida and um California like LA or San Diego area or it's pretty much all of California I'd say San Francisco LA or San Diego oh yeah so all of them haha yeah yeah and two sons Arizona I guess too haha yeah nothing nothing in the far north west just yet but yeah in time I wonder uh I'd love to share you guys information to the folks out here yes please I love connecting and networking with anyone in these kind of relationships um yeah we do do a lot of networking big community builder the main things obviously that helps her with her business is finding people right like the only way we can find people I mean there's a lot of ways but the best way is to network go to events and meet people in person say hey actually I think you'd be a great fit for this so yeah you know it's they operate like a special warfare team out here because like the the like that population that's out here cause it's a very conservative neighborhood but like they have these like covert ops haha yeah it is very it's still not they leave an envelope in your mailbox you have to decode it with the special decoder ring and you get no there is yeah there's still a lot of stigma obviously around open relationships and that's what we're kind of working towards like normalizing nonmonogamy um and there's also like legalities kind of happening in place through the Open Love organization um who are helping poly families and nominalmost families have legal protections but it's still definitely a concern I understand their secret operations right like ha ha ha ha ha yes some people I mean it it some people just it'd be like that I'll say it ha ha it it non monogamy is not for everybody right and and you have to be able to 1 be mature and and communicate your feelings and your wants and your needs and a lot of people can't do that right so and it's also illegal or illegal in the military you can't be anonymous while in the military so we had to keep that part of our life private if you're married if you're married yeah yeah adultery thing I mean like I don't I don't know I don't care like I don't care what anybody does as long as they're happy and everybody's cool with it like so I think it's interesting that there's a lot of emphasis so I kind of want to get into a little bit of the stereotype so what are some of the things that you've heard that are absolutely not true okay oh man what um oh that we're cheating on each other oh yeah yeah that's a great one we're cheating on each other yeah it's glorified cheating neither one of us are good enough in bed for for each other for each other um what else is the um some funny ones we we have full that spenders are CDs oh yeah full of STDs that were CDs and we're gross and we're not safe about anything um oh man I'm sure there that just off the top of her head that's probably a yeah those are the common misconceptions of those who are in the swinger relationship um or like you're just unhappy in your relationship yeah that you're unhappy first but yeah I don't know how I would be unhappy but whatever no yeah so those will definitely like um and then we also get a lot of backlash sometimes from those who are really religious and really conservative um they're like I don't even want you talking to my mom if you think humans are terrible being monogamous I've heard before so um you know stuff like that ha ha when people can't wrap their head around something and they wanna give their two sense of what someone else is doing with their life um yeah the the internet can be a wild wild wild west sometimes out there but I have not gone into any altercations or arguments or anything like that in person no matter where I've gone cause I go to I go to veteran networking events and I go to normal networking events and I bring up this conversation everywhere and everyone's either into it or they're not you know they're intrigued or they're they might even share that they're a part of it I love it I love informing people and tell in a lot of matchmakers are unfamiliar with nomenclature so that I'm educating them and I'm sharing them story like sharing stories with them and they're like I can't believe you can just do that and you're married I'm like yeah it's amazing it's a very liberating relationship dynamic to be in I think everyone should do it or at the very least have a conversation about it and open up that communication yeah I think I wonder how many relationships could be saved if it was just simply a conversation that's what I say all the time that's what Ryan was saying earlier is like unethical nomenclature happens all the time so imagine having that conversation and then given the opportunity to opt in or opt out of what it is that you wanna do so you know if a girl's like why I don't want you hooking up with other people like he's like okay I understand but this is what I want for myself so do you wanna stay together or not without the heartbreak and without the fights and that without the deceit like just conversation you know yeah yeah do you have any interesting uh stereotypes oh yeah what have you been gathering love to hear I was doing some research on like the whole background of this and then you go down like the Google deep dive right like you're in just you're in the rabbit hole at that point so I started off by looking up um research regarding non monogamy across the species so there's like this historical context of like really strict monogamy being very recent and very much so to the United States it's never really been a thing for us to be like that's for us to be monogamous it's very new occurrence and there's like a theory that it's because of uh legal aspects and tax collection and sharing of uh mm hmm yep taxes yeah of course of course that's why they just can't track your stuff so if government something happens to you and your assets needed to be divided if you have three wives it's like a little bit more difficult for the for the government to track that so I'm like okay that makes sense right it all boils down to taxes somewhere at some point but some of the deep dive Reddit post I went on oh you're in Reddit oh no I know yeah right am I the asshole posts oh yeah am I the asshole like I approached my wife about possibly pursuing like polygamy or or some other kind of like mm hmm well hold on so polygamy is illegal polygamy is when you have multiple uh wives yeah and so it's different than polyamory which a lot of people do mix up but yeah polygamy is illegal polyamory is because marriage anyways but I but yeah we we get oh yeah well oh okay that that I mean was he in Utah yeah polygamy is unethical as well so I guess typically in polygamy the comments were split it was like some people were like dude do what makes you happy and other comments were like wtf uh it's probably probably the word polygamy just everybody was like polygamy so so polyamory is when you're in that like yeah just think of multiple multiple multiple loving multiple loving relationships yeah it's the easiest way to describe it yeah right yeah not in this country at least I'm sure there's some yeah cause what makes polygamy unethical to people who live ethically is that um typically the women so the man has multiple wives but the women have to be closed off to only him they're not allowed to pursue other connections they're not allowed to be intimate with other people they are exclusive to their one husband one penis policy one penis policy we don't love it we hate it and yeah yeah I would I would that's why yeah and another thing too that I'd like to like add is that oftentimes since you're doing your research and anyone who might be listening might then start to research as well is that you'll see it going back and forth consensual nomenclature and ethical nomenclature and and when I first saw that I thought they were the exact same thing and I thought people were just like using them interchangeably until someone further explained it and it makes all the sense so consensually nonmonogamous relationships might be closed throuples it might be um consensual in a way where it's like the word green like it works for them it works for them and like if we have a girlfriend and like but I can't have a boyfriend that's you know still consensually nominamous we had that conversation I'm agreeing to it but from someone from an ethical standpoint will think like okay well if you could have multiple women why can't she have multiple men and then that kind of comes down to misogyny or like toxic traits in my opinion where it's like why can't you it can be flipped the other way too right yes and then woman can have multiple partners yes the guy can't and that's called um hotwifing yeah and but to say that hotwifing is unethical it's it's all about communication yeah boundaries and all that but yeah yeah there's lots of terminology and so you can go down a rabbit hole forever yeah for this and so ethical nomenclature comes from an ethical standpoint where it's like make make sure that it's it's fair it's enthusiastic it's you know um it's like different standards compared to just being consensually okay with it and then um being ethical about it yeah I'm gonna so all of the actual peer reviewed research I'm gonna share uh okay fun oh come on I need just like but just in case you were curious here's all my Reddit Reddit holes there was another Reddit post it was about a guy and his girlfriend had an open relationship so they're not married and but he felt like there was the a change in their dynamic and maybe she was getting jealous and the comments were actually not negative at all the comments were people who are also in open relationships that were sharing what they used to set boundaries and I was just shocked at like like people were sending like SOS haha yeah I'm honestly you'll see that you'll see that a lot more in like the kink community like with like Doms and subs and things like here's the contract here's what here's our here's our sops right this is what we're doing and we're going from there but yeah I mean to to your point again like yes communication and and you know back and forth agreements of hey I like this I didn't like that you like this yeah and you didn't like that so let's do that but yeah that is very true I mean like like she said in I don't know how long ago it was a while ago it was keep an open mind things do change right like yeah we thought we were gonna do this we never thought we were gonna play with people again right like but that obviously is not the case so keep an open mind like yeah no that's I mean that makes sense and again I saw a lot a lot of the stereotypes I found were just more so naive just not knowing and I was able to debunk a lot of those myself especially like with it not being safe and you know being dangerous and I'm like well like if you do it safely and if you have a company like yours who can kind of guide that process I really like the I like when people do stuff for me right especially when it's when it's like it's like shocking yeah outsourcing their love life exactly so I can't imagine how many people out there oh yeah I hear that a lot I haven't been on dating apps in years because they're awful but there's always that like random mm hmm mm hmm you're like okay hahaha you're like I don't know what that means hahaha that's funny because that feel like I'm setting myself up for failure here hahaha hahaha that that gets a comprehensive idea of you what you're looking for and then has people that they've already vetted so is it like like I don't mean to say this like this but this is kind of what I have in my mind very visual person is like your baseball card like you created their baseball your you know baseball card and you're like here's this other person so if you if I hired you and you were looking for somebody for me you would take let's say my baseball card or my profile and give it to somebody else and be like cool or not cool like swipe right or left is that how it works haha and in a very base form yeah kind of let me so I guess specifically I'll make a profile where I write down their core values a profile about them you know hobbies interests like and I the thing that in the way I make their profile is I emphasize things that are really important to them so one of my clients is like a huge hobbyist like he has tons of hobbies he's a pilot he's a scuba diver he's all this and he wants someone to do it with him because in his prior relationships they were just like they only had one hobby that and he he tried to get into that hobby but um it didn't pan out so he wants someone to do it with him so I my profile the profiles are heavy like someone who's who thinks out of the box who goes out of their comfort zone who wants to explore the world like at their playground like that's kind of like how I lead with it and so if the women hear about that and they're like yeah that sounds great cause why wouldn't it um then I'm like okay well here's his pictures here's and I email them the pictures in the profile once they agree that they're interested and then um if they're like yeah and then that's when I get their pictures and profile and then that's when I present it to my client so I'm presenting to my client people have already said yes to them and then I tell them why I think they're compatible match and then um they can decide to go on a date from there and if yeah it's a lot of back and forth for sure it's so much better yeah no I um there's there's a term called um online matchmaking where some companies um pretend to be you on the dating apps and they're doing everything for you planning the dates and then they and then the person who's actually the profile just goes to the date and then take it away from there no I think that's pretty awesome especially I don't know I always get so worried I work in the security field I'm like this is not who it is like this person lives in their mom's basement they're like collecting bodies in their freezers like there's always that like I was wondering about the safety of anybody men and women who are who are you know trying to matchmake on their own but I feel like that is um it's definitely a service especially if this is kind of what you're interested in so as a part of your profile are there any other things that you include as it relates to like sexual compatibility so like if I say like I'm looking for this particular partner I'm like into this is that something that you include yes haha yeah um I mean it's a big big part of so the service right is is matching people compatibly sexually as well yeah of course I can't guarantee like oh she needs to have sex with me every day I'm like okay can't guarantee that but I can ask her if she is like what's your you have a high sex drive right if you have a high sex drive is that okay or like what's the ideal amount and like if if if that's important to the client if it's like it's more like I want to go to go to parties with people or I want to go to dungeons with people I want to have the rules like I ask those questions I say at the very base point of it it's hey the the client is into well just say swinging parties right like without that right like the the relationship is not going to exist so we essentially ensure that the potential partner is aware is aware and is like hey have you been to a play party do you would you be okay with going is it something you know what I mean yeah so starting there it doesn't have to be all crazy right like just like yeah like you don't have to match 100% but yeah it's definitely a good starting yeah it has to be some some similarity there uh huh so yeah like there's um a client that I'm talk or a potential client I'm talking to who who has a humiliation kink and so um I'm you know going back and forth with him but basically if I were to officially have him as my client then that's when I would be looking for women who are dominant and who are familiar or okay with a humiliation kink and that way when they go on a date like that parts already vetted because people don't know when to bring this up when they're out in the wild or out on a normal date like do I bring this up on the second date third date first date second sentence so yeah it's a profile so yeah that's the nice thing about my matchmaking service they have all that information right you can just slide it across the tip yeah I have all the information had time anything they want their partner to know before meeting them yeah so it it and that is like definitely a case by case basis but but with them sharing this information to me I have also like extra layers of Protection um like I do have an NDA I do have contracts and Canada agreements and then the whole like no no exchanging the contacts until you move forward that's a big one too because you can get information from people's phone numbers and stuff like that so you also run background check and back oh yeah and background checks I do background checks as well on clients and dates yeah yep yeah yeah very thorough no that's that's awesome so okay thank you for having that are you providing multiple matches to each of your clients because because of that or is it how does that work um it well yes or no so think it's still traditional matchmaking where you're providing one match at a time it just depends on the services that I uh purchase so yeah she has a paper match which is one match at a time and then she has like a six month option where you're where it's guaranteed 3 3 matches right it could be more than the maximum yeah so that way I can show them as I if I get an abundance of women then I can show them why I think they're compatible with all these women and they can go on a date with all of them um but typically I try not to like I do it just like one at a time because if you have too many options and it's like um nothing looks good everything looks good and and yeah that's fine so it's a slower process but it's like a higher quality process too so everything that you're saying so far I'm like that's haha monogamous or non monogamous like matchmaking yeah yeah exactly that's definitely a big point of why there's a lot of interest in matchmaking other than completely outsourcing that time if you're trying to buy back your time but the peace of mind that we're taking extra measures to make sure that they're a good person I didn't say two also you're asking do you provide multiple ones so it's typically one at a time to see hey do they wanna go on a second date a third date right like and go from there that's not to say that that you know if that couple were to stay together right long term they say hey we want another person for our relationship long term right like you could do that as well but yeah but that's not my main one that one's harder so right now it's mainly just trying to trying to find two people's um preferences and put them all together and find one person that's even yeah it's a lot of work haha it makes a lot of sense just like minded people that are that are in a part of the non monogamous community that you're matching who can like go forth and prosper so can you do you have any case studies something that really like really puts a like a spotlight on what you do like any like amazing clients that you've had that I know you guys are new so it's not like they've been together 10 years but um do you have any case studies that you want to share any good ones I know I'm putting on the spot with that I know I'm like trying to think who is a good well there was I'm trying to think who I'd like to um who do I wanna share whose story it's awesome that you have so many I know I'm just like trying to think which one the best one yeah like around that area yeah you know I'd say I have um a female client and she just wants to connect with someone and the way her search is that she's not interested in big swinger parties but she is bicurious and she wants to have sexual experiences because she has PTSD she is a veteran herself and so she is interest or open to being with someone who is already partnered or poly and or someone who is single so I found her this guy who is polyamorous but he wants more kids and um they're they're it was just like it's gonna be a perfect match like they're both in the medical field they're both um on the same page as what they want like long term they're both within driving distance of each other they both can travel so that was just like a hit off the on the off that first one and then another one was the client that I mentioned who's a pilot like one of his things was like I don't like going into city but I want to be a you know suburbanite and I found him a girl who also doesn't like the city who has all the same interests as him so um that's like a wonderful hit as well um for those two I'd say that's pretty interesting so what about distance like what if you have someone in New York it just it depends right like it so generally we'll go off of what the client wants like say hey I can I can move nationwide or like I can go anywhere it doesn't matter like and then we'll obviously if he's in New York we can say things to people in LA or Texas or wherever right like that works but if if the client is generally like no I'm not gonna move then we still could do things in other parts of the country but it comes a lot harder it's like hey are you willing to move right like are you are you serious willing to relocate for love yeah that's one of the questions I asked in the beginning typically people want someone within driving distance of each other um yeah but if but you know sometimes they're like but if you have someone who is just absolutely amazing like still share them with me and then we'll take it from there so but typically their surge is within a certain range and if they're in New York I'm not and they want New York I'm not typically trying to network with those in L a yeah so but sometimes they pop in so I will always give him the opportunity like this person would be a match like it's just a distance that's an issue yeah I think the the whole concept is is again very new to me I only know very superficially about this lifestyle and uh doing the deep dive and talking to you and doing the research I found that there's so much more to it just like most types of relationships there's a lot of layers to it so so I guess my next question is where do you see your business going like obviously you're doing very well this is obviously something that has been needed um I know you mentioned that you partner with another company kind of who does like the LGBT community so do you think that that would be a service that you'd eventually offer just if you want to talk about those two things yeah if if we looked really really far into the future what would be really cool for birds of feather matchmaking is our brand is like non traditional relationships and that can look in a lot of different ways so if I grew really big and I had other matchmakers under me or recruiters under me we could even niche down even more like we could have a division for BDSM we could have a division for poly and we could have a division for the LGBTQ community who is non monogamous like as long as you're like the non monogamous bit is kind of tied in we can really just like super niche down and have other matchmakers with that specialization um I'd say events as well we we oh yeah we're doing events couple times a month um you know little dip your toes into this um sphere of ha yeah an E N m social club relationships right yeah essentially like an E N m social club to just build more awareness and then get build community build community and and just make it better for everybody I think the that's probably the yeah the main goal for me is just just making this more prominent and and more accessible and getting rid of some of the stereotypes right so yeah yeah it's the education piece of it yeah oh yeah I definitely wanna tie a lot of education pieces into this stuff yeah and then I know you mentioned and I'm I'm asking this because I do have a lot of military following and a lot of my military friends who are now law enforcement a lot of them are single they are interested in this lifestyle but like I have two really good guy friends that are gay so I'm not too sure if that's something that you guys can do so yeah so what we would generally do is you have a talk with them right but we generally refer things that aren't in the very specific niche for us out we I we just don't have a giant network uh in the LGBT yeah community right like it we I should walk it back we're not specialists in gay relationships and lesbian relationships of of that nature right we're non monogamous relationships we probably be probably be better off for us and that potential client to true send them to somebody else with that being said as well they can still join my dating database cause I often get bisexuals in my that that as clients so maybe they are open to dating men and women and or just alone being a resource to them or being able to connect them with somebody else as you know matchmakers were collaborative in that kind of way so of course I always invite anyone everyone to join my database um but if they're looking for a little something more hands on a little more specialized then we have we have better resources for them yeah and matchmakers are very collaborative in that sense right like you're like hey I have this person for you right and like in generally it'll help you get a commission off of that so say she sent somebody to like she get she had a client in Seattle or something right like we don't have really much presence in Seattle but she knows a matchmaker in Seattle and you send them to that matchmaker if they sign on generally she'll get like a a little commission off of that everybody everybody gets a better service and but it's pretty much just helping the client be matched with a better matchmaker for them yeah yeah mm hmm to kind of refer them out but also it's in the best interest of the potential client I only ask that cause I have I have a lot of gay guy friends Navy right so I spent a lot of time hanging out with them and and I'm like I'm always down for whatever like I will go with them to the end of the world if they want but sometimes I'm like yo we are in a sketchy situation right now haha like I don't feel safe yeah yeah yeah I'm like at the club and they meet somebody at the club and like let's go back to their kickback and I'm like I don't even oh wasn't even of their face so I'm like but I but they show their penis oh my gosh oh we love the gays yeah like just hold yeah here look I'm not gonna go with you but take this tracker just gonna all right I'm gonna I'll try I'll keep it on my phone swallow the tracker put it somewhere yeah yeah you're right only swallowing I'm just kidding so but no there have been so many times that I'm just like sitting at someone's house like just drink I remember once you went to this one guy's house and I'm like drink only drinking water cause I'm like trying to sober up and this guy like opens up a crock pot and whips out a cow heart he's like I just sauteed this for like 6 hours and I'm like we need to go oh wow I can't I can't tell the difference but it's like that for me I'm like can you imagine the safety and security that and my friend is a he's a lawyer so it's like you know he's a professional that could afford a service and would benefit from something like this so I think at least sending them your way to get started I say some people enjoy the chaos though you know so that just might be so so they might just need therapy yeah that's why I moved to the suburbs I'm like we're I'm too far away now I can't say it differently no this is awesome though cause I think the more I realize how many of my friends and how many people I know kind of fall into this room I'm like wow a lot yes it's a lot more than you would think and you yeah and it's just up and coming it's only gonna get bigger in this economy can't be a monopolist yeah that part too need all the help ha ha a ton of information that are gonna be really relevant to a lot of people who who are listening especially because uh I know I've had conversations with friends like I said being kind of like a confidant for some of my friends who vent to me about their relationships and and they've hinted at this and I'm like I have no idea so at least pointing them in a in a direction so your events um are they local to Chicago do you travel places to do events so there are some plans in the works to have events in other places so um we're planning or when I say we're planning it's like verbal like nothing's quite official yet but there are plans to go to New York City to have an EMM Social Club event where it's like a social gathering and we're gonna have a lot of resources for New York New Yorkers um that are non monogamous and whoever's local there and then we've been invited to do the speed dating event in Denver and in Austin Texas and Tucson Arizona Phoenix Arizona um but yes right now only in Miami Florida so all those have been conversations of potentially having events in those areas so but yeah for sure Chicago is here to stay cause we're here but um but yes we're working on expanding yeah most of my listener base is in uh New York and LA but for the the folks that visit the website with a lot of traffic to the website and that's spread out across the United States so I asked those questions specifically for them cause I have folks in Kansas City you know I have folks that come from all over the United States to the website yeah well if you want like resources on like where people should go that could be like another podcast or another time of like where people should go online what resorts are out there what locations clubs how to know there's yeah there's a lot yeah there's a lot there's a lot around the States and people travel to the do that stuff all the time I would say also there's probably in in any major city there's probably some sort of event for this right like either like a swingers thing a poly thing they're they're generally called like munchs or slashes right like where you go to somewhere like a bar right as a slashing you can drink and mingle just a networking event and then you know but yeah yeah it takes time to build community but they're out there yeah I mean I I'm familiar so there's a very big BDSM presence and maybe it's I'm thinking it's big because I was like I had a personal trainer who decided to get into the BDSM world as a dom and she started working like this dungeon in LA and uh it like threw me off cause uh you know she's like a bodybuilder and she was like my personal trainer and then she was like uh yeah I'm not gonna be training here anymore I'm gonna be a Dom at this dungeon I'm like what the fuck haha you're like oh yeah who's gonna give me my workouts we know lots of Mormons you know you'd be surprised at how many Mormons yeah convert out of Mormonism and yeah yeah like go do your thing it sucks cause like you're a really good personal trainer but um haha yeah noobiestm is more common than swinging say that again yeah it's well when I was doing research oh sorry no no haha yeah so yeah um when I was doing research on like what people are looking up kink slash BDSM was way more looked up compared to swinging alone like a search engine yeah so and I think BDSM is appealing because it's very very monogamous you can just do that with one other partner and you're not really opening it opening your relationship to other people so I think that's why it's easier for people to like digest and be interested in because it's like oh I could be submissive and you just tell me everything and what we're gonna do in this bed or I I tell you what I want and then you make it happen like you know there's negotiation and talking you know getting those needs met but yeah that's a whole of the world obviously the gateway I don't know about that but like it's more more um you can go down some really fun at first I guess it is accessible yeah more than swinging for sure we Learned about restraints at a workshop that we went to before a play party who we we um had a fetish model dominatrix or um teach the class on accessible bondage and so we use things like saran wrap and a belt and a tie and band and yeah and accessible bondage a bandage around not bondage tape so that was fun that was funny with icebreaker questions in between each tie so that's interesting I mean there's a class that means yeah also I think the 50 shades of grey really ripped the lid off of what a lot of people were yeah that that definitely helps uh huh yeah yeah so I again I wanted you to come on to this podcast a little different than what I normally do because I was so interested I'm interested in things that I don't know and I don't know anything about this so I I enjoyed the learning experience and I think demystifying some stuff is extremely beneficial but yeah before we wrap things up is there anything else you guys want to include how can folks reach you yeah I can be reached uh through my Instagram E n m matchmaker I also have another one called birds of a Feather m m but I can also be reached um through my website at birdsandfeathermatchmaking com I have an option for let's talk or you can join my database I'm pretty easily easy to reach um also on fetlife in a matchmaker so um yeah those would be the best way to get a hold of me yeah that's awesome I'll leave links to everything in the video description